009 The number of subjects and the verb 'biti'

23/4/2019

Croatian grammar #009

The number of subjects and the verb ‘biti’

So 'je' = 'is', and 'su' = 'are'?......... Think again!

Read on only if and when you are ready to concentrate. This might be tough going. And I am still trying to get my head around it.

A conversation with a friend who is also learning Croatian ….

Joyce: Hey Bob, how do you say in Croatian “The apples are on the table”?
Bob:     You know that … “Jabuke su na stolu”.
Joyce: Yes, of course. Well how is it that in this Croatian book it says “Sedam jabuka je na stolu”. Je? Like …. “Seven apples is on the table”!?
Bob:     That doesn’t make sense!
Joyce:  No, it doesn’t. Aha! I see they have got it right later on .. “Dvije žene su u kući.”
Bob:     Well I guess they made a mistake with “Sedam jabuka je na stolu”.. Don’t worry … All textbooks have typo errors.

The next day ....

Bob: Joyce, I have checked with our teacher Mateja, and she tells me that your book was absolutely correct!
Joyce: Huh? How can that be? Where is the logic?
Bob: Mateja tells me that we have to stop looking at Croatian grammar through English-speaking eyes (if you know what I mean).
We have our rules, and Croatians have theirs. I guess that what you said about the use of je and su doesn’t seem strange or illogical to them?
Let me summarise what Mateja told me about how the form of the verb biti depends on the number of items or people that are the subject of a sentence.

This will be a bit text-booky, but here goes ………

When we have just one item:

Obviously (if anything can be taken for granted in the Croatian language) ….
One apple is on the table. = Jedna jabuka je na stolu.

When there are two, three, four items:

As we English speakers would expect:
Two apples are on the table. = Dvije jabuke su na stolu.
Three apples are on the table. = Tri jabuke su na stolu.
and ….
Four apples are on the table. = Četiri jabuke su na stolu.

Joyce: Well yes, of course.
Bob: But wait! Sit down and prepare yourself ….

When the number of items is 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, ….. Get ready for it ….
            Five apples are on the table. = Pet jabuka je na stolu.
            Six apples are on the table. = Šest jabuka je na stolu.
            Ten apples are on the table. = Deset jabuka je na stolu.

Tri jabuke su na stolu. Pet jabuka je na stolu.

Joyce: Strange language, Croatian!
Bob: Let me finish .....

For all compound numbers that end in 2, 3, or 4 (except 12, 13, and 14) the form of the verb biti that we use is su – the same as with 2, 3, or 4 on their own. For example:
53 apples are on the table. = 53 jabuke su na stolu.
1034 apples are on the table. = 1034 jabuke su na stolu.

And the same goes for masculine and neuter nouns.
82 trees are in the field. = 82 stabla su na polju.

And for all compound numbers ending with 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 0 (as well as 12, 13, and 14) we use je. For example:
            13 apples are on the table. = 13 jabuka je na stolu.
            55 apples are on the table. = 55 jabuka je na stolu.
            1035 apples are on the table. = 1035 jabuka je na stolu.

Joyce: And what if we don’t specify the number of apples at all?
Bob:     Then things are “as they ought to be”. As we said at the start of this conversation ....
The apples are on the table. = Jabuke su na stolu.

Joyce: Wow! I think I’ve got it. Don’t think like an English speaker, Joyce.
Bob:     No, and when you are learning Croatian, don’t think like an English speaker, Bob.

Joyce: Well, that’s only in the present tense. What about in the past tense?
Bob:     Then the mysteries really begin! Let me give you what Mateja has told me (Again, a bit text-booky ....) and then we can go figure …

When there is only one item (or person), things are as we would expect – in all three genders:
            Muški rod:       One plate was on the table. = Jedan tanjur je bio na stolu.
            Ženski rod:      One apple was on the table. = Jedna jabuka je bila na stolu.
            Srednji rod:      One child was in the room. = Jedno dijete je bilo u sobi.

When there are 2, 3, or 4 items, or compound numbers ending with 2, 3, or 4 (except 12, 13, and 14), the form of the verb biti is su – again, as we would expect in the plural.

Furthermore, for feminine or neuter subjects, the past participle is unsurprising:
            Ženski rod:      Three apples were on the table. = Tri jabuke su bile na stolu.
            Srednji rod:      Four cinemas were in that street. = Četiri kina su bila u toj ulici.

But what is surprising (like everything else in this venture of learning Croatian) is that with masculine subjects, the past tense of biti is the same as for neuter subjects:
Muški rod:       Two plates were on the table. = Dva tanjura su bila na stolu.

Joyce: And not su bili! My goodness!! Well at least I guess that is the end of the surprises!
Bob: Oh no, no, no! The best is last:

Things are even more surprising when there are 5, 6, 7, 8, or 9 items, or compound numbers ending with 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 0 (as well as 12, 13, or 14): the verb takes the form je bilo, regardless of whether masculine, feminine or neuter gender:

Muški rod:       17 plates were on the table. = 17 tanjura je bilo na stolu.
Ženski rod:      20 books were on the shelf. = 20 knjiga je bilo na polici.
Srednji rod:      645 trees were in the field. = 645 stabala je bilo u polju.

Na početku, osam tanjura je bilo na stolu.
Kasnije, četiri tanjura su bila na stolu.
Konačno, samo jedan tanjur je bio na stolu.

Bob: Go figure, Joyce .... I need a rest!
Joyce: I suppose it’s logical enough, and simple enough - if I can get out of my English-speaking mode, and try not to compare the languages in every sense.

My knowledge of English is interfering with learning Croatian! I think I will un-learn my English!

Learning Croatian is so demanding if you keep on thinking in English!

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4 Comments

Jako

12/6/2020 09:50:02

Hi again,
I had believed that would be something complicated to understand y memorize the plural or singular use with numbers in present tense. So the things I will only refer something about numbers associated with subjects in present tense. The things of the past haven’t importance, nobody remember them. So, and paying excuses I will not read about it. Sorry.
I am just in the needing to write to a friend that I have 11 apples over the table, 21 plums into a plate and the last 41 into a basket.
If well I would seem a bit maniac, but I only paid attention your clear and nice explanation about the alluded theme, but I was unable to tell my friend what previously is told for me. May be that your teacher Mateja could provide some solution? Matija and Matías are very important persons for me.
Thanks for all again. I chose for next reading Padezi working, theme that promise to be a topic that seems more bearable and without complications in sight, as I could perceive in some previous reading from other authors. If you get to do understandable that subject for me...
Payin excuses for my previous jocose comment about other theme. I wish you good Luck.

Bob Bucat link

12/6/2020 23:24:32

Thanks for making contact again, Jako. I'm not sure what your are asking me .... Give me a specific question, and I will pass it on to Mateja.

By the way, I can't find the error that you told me about previously (knjiga, jabuka). Can you point me to it, please, at least by telling which page it is on.

Good wishes. Bob

13/6/2020 03:39:26

Grammar 09 The number of subjects and the verb biti. Only for Present Tense

When we have just one item:
1 = je

When there are two, three, four items:
2 = su Dvije jabuke su na stolu.
3 = su Tri jabuke su na stolu.
4 = su Četiri jabuke su na stolu.

- When the number of items is 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, … ¿? I suppose that 7, 8, 9 would be the same as the examples you gave and I copy and pasted them. (Always Italic letters are mines; another’s one are your). Look that you omitted rules from single number as in case of 5, 6, 7, 8, 9. But you gave an example of some from them (5, 6 and 10).

5 = je Pet jabuka je na stolu
6 = je Šest jabuka je na stolu
7 = je ?
8 = je ?
9 = je ?
10 = je Deset jabuka je na stolu

- For all compound numbers that end in 2, 3, or 4 (except 12, 13, and 14) the form of the verb biti that we use is su.
- And for all compound numbers ending with 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, or 0 (as well as 12, 13, and 14) we use je.
- Look both precedent paragraphs or sections that you didn’t mention about the following numbers: 11, 21, 31, and so forth.

11 = ? This one pertain to su or je?
12 = je
13 = je
14 = je
15 = je
16 = je
17 = je
18 = je
19 = je
20 = je
21 = ? This one pertain to su or je?
22 = su
23 = su
24 = su
25 = je
26 = je
27 = je
28 = je
29 = je
30 = je
31 = ? This one pertain to su or je?
32 = su
33 = su
34 = su
35 = je
36 = je
...
51 = ? This one pertain to su or je?
52 = su
53 = su
54 = su
55 = je
1034 = su
1035 = je (jabuka je na stolu)

In this way to express my doubts I supposed that would be clearer than that with comments.

Summarizing: I only need to know if the compound numbers that I mention below pertain to “su” or “je” when lasting as the following samples: 11, 21, 31, 41, 51, and so forth ending in 1. Example: 21 I must use su or je. 21 jabuke su (je) na stolu?

Recommend: Include a specific rule for the numbers 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10.

I ask these because I couldn’t find an explanation for them.

Thank you for your helping. To get the knowing of the Croatian culture is for me more than a simple curiosity… Can you comprehend me?

Trying to avoid confusions, I will refer the other topic about “knjiga” and “jabuca” in another specific comment. I believe that better is to solve this subject first and then go on with the other.

I know that these things that I comment can disturb you. But for a student it is very valuable explanations without confusing.

Lasting, I know that my English is not as good as I would be wished it would. Sorry.

Please: I did what is said abave in a doc text with caracters, resultings and more. Here all this was lost. Could you gime me an email that might be temporal to send you this document in doc file?

Daniel N. link

16/11/2021 08:22:12

First, there's one subtle point. With 2, 3, 4 there are special forms of adjectives

dv-a dobr-a prijatelj-a su bil-a ovdje.

Notice -a repeating? This looks like neuter plural, but it actually isn't. It's a "special form".

Second, that surprising singular is simply an outcome of the fact that numbers 5, 6 etc are NOT nouns or adjectives, so verbs "can't see" them. So verbs default (like in weather expressions) to neuter singular.

This happens a lot:

Puno ljudi je bilo...
Nekoliko jabuka je bilo...
Malo prijatelja je znalo...
Mnogo jabuka je imalo...

puno = a lot, nekoliko = several, malo = a few, mnogo = many

The plural with 2, 3, 4 is actually an exception, and historically there was another form with these numbers (lost in Croatian, but still alive in Slovene)

009 The number of subjects and the verb 'biti'

Croatian grammar #009

The number of subjects and the verb ‘biti’

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